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Illness Impacting Dairy Cattle Is Confirmed as Highly Pathogenic Avian Flu (agweb.com)
83 points by sklargh on March 25, 2024 | hide | past | favorite | 73 comments


At least the effects are small compared to poultry farming. Slightly less milk production and reduced feed intake for cattle; they survive.

“Unlike affected poultry, I foresee there will be no need to depopulate dairy herds […]USDA confirmed that there is no threat to human health and milk and dairy products remain safe to consume. Pasteurization (high heat treatment) kills harmful microbes and pathogens in milk, including the influenza virus,"


There are people who drink unpasteurized milk. Wondering if that could be a vector for it to jump to humans?


Raw Milk Is Being Legalized in More States. Is It Safe? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36868779


There is a reason why pasteurization as a process was developed.


Raw milk drinker here. We've been drinking raw milk for some years now. What makes it work is that the milk comes from a farm (which we can visit), which has a small number of cows and follows modern best practices when it comes to milking procedures. Each teat is washed and disinfected before milking. Additionally, the first few squirts of milk are milked by hand, which gives a visual indication of whether that teat is infected or not. If it is infected, it is milked into the ground by hand, and further treatment may be pursued as needed. If, for some reason, something was missed, a small number of people will be affected.

Contrast that to a large dairy operation. Several hundred cows mean higher pressure to get through them all, and a higher chance that the farmer misses something. Half of all cows are in herds of over 900 animals, which means that many operations are now completely automated, removing the visual inspection that a farmer in a small-scale operation performs. That milk is then sent to a milk processing facility that may process upwards of 100,000 gallons per day. Any bacteria from one cow can and will be mixed with the milk from multiple other farms, and can potentially infect tens of thousands of gallons.

Anecdotaly, we have several friends who cannot digest homogenized milk, but do well with raw milk. We are not sure if this is due to the makeup of the milk fat or due to the (usually harmless) microbiota in the milk.


> Anecdotaly, we have several friends who cannot digest homogenized milk, but do well with raw milk. We are not sure if this is due to the makeup of the milk fat or due to the (usually harmless) microbiota in the milk.

I'm very interested in this, as it's true for me too! I don't have access to raw milk in my state, but I can find 'creamline' or 'cream top' milk at my farm stand, and that works great for me. Oddly, so does dry/powdered milk, of pretty much any type.

I've tried to research why homogenized milk is different (besides the obvious), but keep running into dead ends. I'd love to read any further info you have.


The recent raw milk trend is made possible by advances in science. Pasteurization was developed because we had almost no understanding of bacteria. Heating up the milk seemed to make it last longer, and safer to drink, and that was that.

Now, a more modern understanding of microorganisms has lead to an interest in preserving commensal bacteria already present in food. Milk in the cow is generally safe to drink, but cows aren't clean on the outside, and milk is often contaminated during the industrial process. So this leads to a situation where bad bacteria are occasionally mixed in with the good.

Fortunately, testing for specific species of bacteria is cheap and reliable. Milk can be tested for the kinds of bacteria we don't want. Contaminated milk can be pasteurized, and sold as regular milk. Safe milk is chilled and sold as raw milk, preserving its microbiota.


If they are commensal, what's it matter?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commensalism

biological interaction (symbiosis) in which members of one species gain benefits while those of the other species neither benefit nor are harmed.


Because the good bacteria present in the milk is commensal, but the bad bacteria introduced outside aren't.


Commensal means something like "not harmful" rather than "good". It's interesting that the language of raw milk has adopted such a precise term.


My point being that if raw milk has bad bacteria introduced from outside of the cow and it is not pasteurized, that bacteria has been shown to be harmful for us


Louis Pasteur is rolling in his grave (he’s buried at the Pasteur Institute)


I come from a meat/dairy background, so swine biosecurity shower was an eye-opening set of search terms.


These success of these avian flus are a direct result of mega factory farms ("concentrated animal feeding operations", or CAFOs) [0]. These massive operations are actually a relatively new thing since the 1990's [1].

We need to stop concentrating large numbers of animals at single sites.

[0] https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/vbz.2006.6.338 [1] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/jan/31/us-dairy...


The only way to change these practices is to make it more profitable by doing as you suggest (which I agree needs to be done). What are the carrots and sticks that could be used in such a situation?


You don't "carrot and stick" the construction industry to make buildings that are safe and accessible, the airplane industry to build and maintain safe planes, the auto industry to have have safe cars, and so on. Laws and regulations dictate certain levels of quality, and people follow them or go to prison. This has been incredibly effective and is the simple solution to this problem. It would be preferable for everyone to win, but it doesn't have to be more profitable - the dangerous behavior simply has to cease.

Bluntly, you don't carrot and stick criminals not to commit crimes. You make the behavior illegal and you punish criminals.


You just talked about sticks.

Carrots (in this case) would be subsidies and possible regulatory easements that might lesson relevant burdens if they are overly broad or excessively painful to follow (i.e., paperwork).


Cramming billions of animals together in confined spaces is really going to come back to bite us some day.


Industrial farming has largely destroyed the effectiveness of our old antibiotics, and every new one that is developed, they get their hands on and start destroying the effectiveness of them, too. It's already biting us.


Me, I'm just waiting for the Great Bovine Rebellion of 2026.



Don't forget the karate cows: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxXjsQbCZR8


Cows with guns - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQMbXvn2RNI

Beat me by a minute of Indecision.


Wow thank you for this. I don't think I have even thought about this song in 20+ years, but somehow I still know every word.


“Some day?”

It’s biting back at us today in the form of climate change. Beef production and agriculture accounts for a significant amount of GHGs.

Yet governments, people, the world continue to do nothing.


A slight correction here. Beef production and the growth of corn and feed stock for beef production is the one that is responsible for extensive release of GHG.


Confinement vs. other methods really don't have much of anything to do with methane production of cattle.


I think cows produce less methane if they have a grass diet but it's been a while since I've read about it.


2% seaweed in diet eliminates methane. Stupid it's not mandatory already.


Interesting. I hadn't been paying attention to this, but it seems accurate: https://caes.ucdavis.edu/news/feeding-cattle-seaweed-reduces...

Yes, assuming the research is correct, this would seem like the sort of thing that should be mandated.


Might be better to do it with a pollution tax. Punish losers but don't mandate a winner, you know.


Is there already a suitable supply chain for that to happen?


Algae grows ridiculously easily - If there was a market for this (likely one driven by mandates to eliminate methane), you could have thousands of tons of algae within months and millions of tons within years.


It's a staple of coastal people's diets the world over. There's half an aisle of it at the local Seattle-area groceries.

Also, I don't think algae and seaweed is the same thing?


Seaweed is a form of algae.


We need better ways to deal with viruses. There really should be a CRISPR/mRNA way by now to immediately cure this stuff like antibiotics for bacteria by now.


Antibiotics are more abundant because bacteria are much more complicated than viruses, giving us significantly vectors to act on them.

We are no where near an antiviral that could be as ubiquitous as antibiotics.


It doesn’t need to be ubiquitous. We just have to have a system in place that can generate CRISPR vectors for any given sequence in hours.


DNA sequencing and CRISPR tag generation is not the bottle neck of this process.

It’s so cheap and easy that undergraduate lab students can learn the process and do it in an afternoon.


Yeah, that’s why I said vector generation. We need to be able to mass produce vectors that can be immediately injected into the human body to act on cells.


We should consider ourselves lucky to even have the medicines we do now, considering the complexity of biology. Even immediately curing bacterial infections is not a given.


Nobody even knew CRISPR existed until the late 80s, and nobody realized that you could use it (with Cas9) for gene editing until the 10s. They're not exactly writing a new JS framework here.


Industrial farmers would sweep in to make antivirals as crippled as they've made antibiotics.


I don’t think you can cripple a CRISPR antiviral given that it’s attacking the base sequence.


Interestingly, CRISPR started out as a way for bacteria to fight viruses. So if we just put CRIPSR in animals, it will protect them. The problem is that influenza can probably mutate faster than we can update the CRISPR-engineered animals.


Loading up a multicellular eukaryotic organism with the CRISPR mechanisms wouldn’t work. Bacteria, as single cell organisms, have an entirely different immune system than animals.

Mammal immune systems are much more complex with dedicated cells and mechanisms.


Yep. In nature, the "writing" aspect is actually writing down a chunk of the virus's sequence to know what to attack in the future. It's a little 'ol immune system for yogurt bacteria!


> So if we just put CRIPSR in animals, it will protect them

Why do you think this is the case?


Can you imagine the conspiracy theories though? Putting that kind of stuff into cattle feed, etc.?


5G Nanomachines, in MY steak?!


"I cook it well done to make sure those nanomachines are well carbonized and no longer a threat"


Cooking activates them. You have to eat your steak raw to avoid mind control.


This is a fantastic dystopian comedy world building detail.


Just think of how much closer we would be to that now if the scientists who invented mRNA vaccines weren't dismissed for years until covid.


The option exists if you're willing to spend a huge amount on testing multiple possible solutions simultaneously for each new strain.

We were willing to spend that much for covid, which how we got the results so fast.

We're not so willing for much else, which is why it being that fast was the thing conspiracy theorists hooked onto.


We should have a system in place that immediately generates the CRISPR vector for whatever sequence we put in. Like a CRISPR vector printer.


The mRNA covid vaccines were essentially chosen directly, not tested against other proteins on the virus. It took a few hours once the virus was sequenced, I guess based on experience with other coronaviruses.


That's just the first stage of testing; you also need in vivo and human safety trials.

Which we did do, it's just there's normally a bigger gap while we think about the results, go looking for funding for the next stage.

With covid (based on reporting at the time, Gell-Mann Amnesia applies), we were building the factories to make the vaccines before we knew which vaccine would be made in that factory.


I think it was more like ensuring the capacity to do it was in place. Things like bioreactors aren't overly specialized.

As well as it went, it wasn't overly ambitious. A few billions of dollars probably could have accelerated widespread availability by months (I'm thinking mostly about producing earlier, with the risk that the production would end up as waste if the vaccine didn't prove out).


You might have heard of it - antibiotics are less and less effective these days. So, you can never rest and stop research. Pathogens adapt by necessity.


I'm sure I've seen a similar news bulletin in the Ndemic Creations game 'Plague Inc.'.


Life imitates art.


>>> USDA reports that affected dairy cows do not appear to be transmitting the virus to other cattle within the same herd.

Familiar words to announce the start of a pandemic.


Should scientists lie to meet your gut instincts?

Viruses that transmit between different species and not individuals in the same species are a thing. Sometimes they evolve to spread in the new host species, sometimes not.


What's an example of a pandemic that started with those words?


https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/cause-of-wuhans-m...

> JANUARY 6, 2020

> Cause of Wuhan’s Mysterious Pneumonia Cases Still Unknown, Chinese Officials Say

> The virus has sickened 59 people so far but does not appear to be transmitting among humans


Not the same.

The article is about a non-human disease that hasn't mutated significantly and isn't transmitting between cows.

No humans are sick with this, and it will need to evolve substantially before any could be.


There's just one more evolution jump to get rampant mammal to mammal transmission


[flagged]


References please. I did not see anything in the article about it affecting BS


Here we go :(


Loading up on N95 masks now.


We've never stopped buying them and keeping them around.


Unless you're wearing it tight enough to leave a mark around your mouth and nose, it's not doing anything for you.

My wife, an ICU nurse, spent a year reusing N95s because people who didn't need them bought them all up, only to wear them in a way that didn't seal properly and provided no protection.




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