For someone who knows next to nothing about pianos: If I (or perhaps my children) want to learn/play the piano today, what are the benefits of having a real piano at home vs an electronic keyboard? It seems to me that a low-end/"budget" upright or baby grand piano costs around as much as a high-end electronic keyboard. What are the differences in sound and/or over-all playing experience?
I am an amateur pianist and have both a real piano and a digital piano at home. My kids gravitate towards the real piano. It doesn't have to be turned on or plugged in. It has no screen or volume control. It's a physical thing they can manipulate, a real instrument. All 3 of them use it for music, whereas the digital piano gets treated more like a toy because it makes funny sounds.
I, on the other hand, play almost exclusively on the digital piano, because the real one is so loud and I have an adult's fear of irritating others with repetitive practice and being judged for playing poorly. Playing in private with headphones has allowed me to learn songs I never would have mastered if I'd had to practice them in the living room where everyone could listen.
Nothing feels like a real piano, but I saved and bought a Nord Grand digital piano, which has real hammers (not just a facsimile) and feels about as close as technology can get you today. https://www.nordkeyboards.com/products/nord-grand
> and I have an adult's fear of irritating others with repetitive practice and being judged for playing poorly.
This is a big factor for me too. I play electric guitar not piano - I always had the problem of guitar amplifiers not really sounding any good until you turn them up real loud. And their volume knobs tend not to allow you to easily set it to quiet anyway.
I've recently started plugging my guitar into my "normal" but high watt power amp into some very nice big speakers, with an old 90s reverb unit in between... since normal amps don't have the usual preamp stage i have a lot of control over volume and it's so much easier to play at low volume but without sacrificing the sound.
I don't feel bad about playing the same thing over and over now when i'm practising, it's just for my living room. My next idea is to try out a modeling amplifier effect unit where you can even use headphones but still get good sounding distortion (probably better than I could afford).
You lose some of the sound of the speaker cone breaking up at high volumes.
Something else to try: enclose the speaker cabinet in an insulated wooden box with a mic (SM57 will do), and add insulated connections connections for the mic out and the amp head in. Keeping the head outside of the box is a good idea because of heat.
It's the only real way to crank a guitar amp without disturbing neighbors and cohabitants.
> You lose some of the sound of the speaker cone breaking up at high volumes.
Oh yeah, it doesn't sound normal for a guitar, it's too clean, but it sounds a lot better than an uncranked guitar amp.
Making a sound isolation box is an interesting idea, but I think I lack the time and skill to pull it off, also i'm in a flat and doubt the bass will stay within such a box - although I'm curious as to how well this works since you could end up with some pretty bad standing waves if the box is the wrong dimension.
I'm going to try a modelling amp next since they can simulate both the amps and speakers, they are pretty good these days apparently, pricey, but no more than a half decent amp. Seems like the right solution for someone living in a shoebox.
First, to clarify, there are "keyboards" and there are "digital pianos". Keyboards typically have 60ish keys, keys that are light or thin, and sound that is low quality. Digital pianos, on the other hand, have full-sized keys that are weighted like a grand piano, have a connection for a traditional piano pedal, and usually have a good sound quality. Keyboards are not appropriate for learning most kinds of "serious" piano music.
A digital piano is perfectly fine to learn on. They're pretty good quality these days. You can put headphones on and not disturb anybody. (Grand pianos are comparatively loud.) There's no question that you can reach an advanced level of playing on a good quality digital piano, like the better ones from Roland, Kawai, or Yamaha.
However, you lose a lot of really fine-grained control of sound. I'm talking about really fine stuff that classical pianists appreciate. For instance, pressing the pedal on a digital won't give you any feedback from the felt rubbing on the strings. Most classically trained teachers would recommend an acoustic over this fact alone.
An acoustic grand also has more opportunities to change and shape the color of the tone. A technician can make the piano warmer or brighter for example.
Some teachers claim an acoustic will lead to vastly better physical technique. I haven't seen this substantiated by any actual experiment though, so it might just be a tale among teachers.
With that said, an acoustic grand is not an investment. Maintaining it costs $100s per year. Keeping it in tip-top shape costs $1000 every 5 years or so, in top of the $100s paid for tuning. They require TLC to keep them in good condition.
Acoustic pianos also slowly break down. The crown of the soundboard flattens, the strings lose brilliance, the felts compress, the hammers wear out, etc.
But an acoustic will probably give you the greatest degree of connectedness to your music that a digital could not.
> First, to clarify, there are "keyboards" and there are "digital pianos". Keyboards typically have 60ish keys, keys that are light or thin, and sound that is low quality.
I describe myself as playing "keyboard" and call my instrument a "keyboard", even though by your definitions it wouldn't be one -- I don't think that's how the word is usually used? I think most people, including most musicians, would consider a digital piano a kind of keyboard.
I guess we can define the terms however we like. An acoustic piano also has a keyboard.
My point was that "keyboards" include a much broader class of electronic instruments than strictly what the set of "digital pianos" includes, like synthesizers, MIDI controllers, semi- or unweighted electric "pianos", etc. Unfortunately, to the beginner, they all look the same.
The usage I've generally seen is that they keyboard is just the row of keys. An analog or digital piano has one, an organ perhaps several. The pianos, an organ, a harpischord, they're all kinds of keyboard instruments.
I'd agree that the post above yours paints a bit of a false dichotomy.
There are some fine semi-weighted keybeds out there, like on the Nord Electro.
We ought remember that replicating the characteristics of an acoustic piano with a digital instrument is difficult, and was basically impossible 30 years ago. Modern sampling keyboards have hundreds of MB of memory for samples (and can play back and mix them with no audible latency).
My comment was written with "learning traditional classical/jazz piano" in mind, where the dichotomy is, I think, not false. Jamming out on semi-weighted keys in your rock band is fine, but it will not cut it for conventional training.
Most of the great jazz players learned on an acoustic piano, and indeed continue to play on an acoustic piano. Hancock, Charles, Peterson, Jarrett, Corea, ... I can't recall a single jazz pianist of note that avoided an acoustic piano and/or built their technique off of semi-weighted keys. Folks like Peterson eventually dabbled and mastered certain electronic instruments, and most jazz musicians encounter electronic instruments as a significant part of their career, but they began with an acoustic.
Keyboards of all sorts are used in all manner of places. Jazz especially loves the rounder tones offered by "e-pianos". There are even some famous synthesized classical pieces. So they're undoubtedly useful instruments, just seemingly avoided in most conventional approaches to learning to play piano.
These are interesting facts that don't address the enormous space of options that exist between the dichotomy you originally presented. That said, please play whatever keyboard you enjoy and call it whatever you want to.
However, you lose a lot of really fine-grained control of sound. I'm talking about really fine stuff that classical pianists appreciate. For instance, pressing the pedal on a digital won't give you any feedback from the felt rubbing on the strings. Most classically trained teachers would recommend an acoustic over this fact alone.
I actually agree with you for the most part, but I think the digital experience is (or at least can be) even closer than you realise.
I have a digital piano that does a very good impersonation of half-pedalling, and when you press down the pedal you can hear the whole soundboard gently vibrate. It was high-end when I bought it over ten years ago. Sound quality has improved a lot since then, touch and feel is at least as good.
Technology has come a long way. Pianoteq is amazing. The Kawai VPC1 was a pleasure to use when paired with nice monitors and a sub.
But, in addition to the sound (like half-pedaling), I'm talking about the actual feel. A digital piano's pedal will always feel like a buttery spring. On an acoustic, you can feel the vibrations, the felts, the engagement of the dampers, etc. in your foot.
It's really minor, because a great pianist can do fine with these very good digitals, but you lose a sense of "one-ness" with the instrument.
Having recently just gone through the acoustic vs digital purchase decision, while you're right that an acoustic breaks down, so too can a digital.
But IMO fixing an action or motherboard on a 10+ year digital is much scarier than fixing a purely mechanical acoustic. A well looked after acoustic has a reasonably forgiving depreciation curve if it's a decent brand too whereas I picked up top-end digital for 45% discount even though it was less than a year old
Given the price difference, you could buy a new high end digital keyboard every 10 years and still be below the cost of a middling acoustic instrument after 50 years.
You can’t justify acoustic economically unless you make your income from the piano. Aesthetically acoustic is the clear winner, but you’d better have your pocketbook well stocked.
Personally I prefer electronic because I’m not a trained pianist and I appreciate the versatility of something like a Korg Kronos over the undeniable physicality of a concert grand. And I splurged a bit on my audio setup so I can still get some good body resonance going when I don’t mind potentially annoying the neighbors.
Hmm quick glance the Kronos is around 2600 GBP. A good monitor set up is maybe 1000 GBP.
At 2% inflation, a series of 5 purchases (one every 10 years) totals to 27815 GBP
On Yamaha today, that will get you a 6'1" C3X.
I don't have great knowledge of the market for second hand midrange Yamaha grands but if it's well looked after (which as discussed costs money) the value of the piano will not be zero.
A spot check on gumtree[0] suggests that a well maintained 30-year old 6'1" Yamaha C3 is worth 50% of today's C3X. I'd be more confident that a well looked after Steinway B would command a decent price - especially if you picked up a decent 5-10 year old to avoid the premium associated with newness then sold it a few decades later.
So for me, I don't agree that the economics of buying a grand piano are as clear cut as your post makes out but I agree that periodic upgrading of a DP is definitely viable and gives you more flexibility.
I used to be really fascinated by antique pianos (Bechstein and Steinway) and I was really impressed how gradual their value decline was, but also how nice they can sound. A well looked after 1900s Bechstein sounds so beautiful.
Consider also the time value of money. If you buy the acoustic you are out all of that money immediately. If not, you can invest it and at least beat inflation. That’s assuming you have the lump sum in hand of course, you may not, and be forced to buy on credit, which will in turn drive a different economic analysis.
I’m pretty comfortable in my belief here. Certainly the immediate winner is the DP, and you may not stick with it long enough, or even live long enough, to win the long term bet you are making here.
Back to my original point — I’m not saying the acoustic isn’t worth it, simply that you should not analyze it from a purely economic point of view, because it is a losing argument from that perspective.
Fair enough. I agree that there is definitely more to just the economics of owning a piano. Times have changed but I do quite like the idea of passing down a piano too.
I also can accept your reasoning and definitely agree re. time value of money (and the value of optionality) but I was surprised actually see the numbers play out the way they did.
As for me, the much bigger problem is finding a place big enough to house a bloody grand piano!
> For instance, pressing the pedal on a digital won't give you any feedback from the felt rubbing on the strings. Most classically trained teachers would recommend an acoustic over this fact alone.
I wonder if there would be a market for that level of emulation.
For example in the car sim scene the higher end braking pedals measure not just the movement but also with how much force it is pressed (force needed for brake pedal is nonlinear with pedal movement), so you have more control over it (easier to control force of pressing compared to absolute movement of the pedal)
> An acoustic grand also has more opportunities to change and shape the color of the tone. A technician can make the piano warmer or brighter for example.
Yeah nah. Digital pianos often have more than one sound to choose from, let alone more advanced synths. If we're talking sheer variety of sound digital has no limits, even if your particular device does there is always option of connecting it to PC (althought no doubt archaic MIDI gonna lose some of the detail there)
False equivalence. A $1k acoustic piano will likely be shit. A $1k digital piano will likely be much better. A good acoustic piano is better than a good digital piano but in the real world where most people are not wealthy. The kinda acoustic piano most people can afford to get, play, tune, maintain and fix is close to the $1k acoustic. While the kinda digital piano people can afford to buy is likely closer to the $1k digital piano. So no, your average piano won't make you feel closer to music because it will be out of tune most of the time and you won't be able to afford a tuner.
I'm not entirely sure what you're rebutting, and I certainly don't know what "equivalence" I made which was "false". I just compared what you can get from a digital piano against what you can get from an acoustic piano.
If we set a budget to $1k, then sure, I agree that you'll have a hard time finding a decent acoustic. I'm not sure, though, why we should assume $1k is an average, and even if it is, why we ought to use that as a benchmark for characterizing acoustic pianos.
Buying a good quality grand piano is affordable to middle-class families. It's not unlike buying a car: you can get them new or used, financed or paid in cash. So somebody, who at least has middle-class financial means, who is serious about learning piano, absolutely has the opportunity to get an instrument they can connect with (in the specific sense I described).
It's not cheap, and to most families it certainly couldn't/wouldn't be a frivolous purchase. But that's just how it is with a decent acoustic instruments. Digital pianos are much more affordable and offer a lot of practical benefits, but they're still significantly different from an acoustic piano in every dimension.
I don't know what kind of income level are you talking about when you say "middle class family". Afaik, most middle-class families can't afford to spend money on a good quality grand piano. I would be even surprised if they even had enough money to maintain it or if they had enough space for it
It's gonna be hard to tell some parents why they should dump over $1k on some fancy piano when they can spend way less than that on a digital piano.
There are lots of 88-key digital pianos. They're pretty nice, actually. But yeah, an acoustic grand is quite unlikely to appreciate in value -- just the opposite. And the weight and size will seriously inconvenience you whenever your flooring needs work.
I think a cheap piano is probably a false economy. It’ll likely have poor sound quality, loose keys, that sort of thing. (I’m sure there are hidden gems to be found at affordable prices but I never have.)
For the same price as a bad piano, you can get a really good digital one that’ll sound and feel great, and won’t need any maintenance. You’ll be able to use headphones, which you’ll definitely want to do if somebody is learning, and it’ll be much easier to record if you ever want to do that.
Both the sound and feel of mid-range digital pianos these days tends to be excellent, very close to the real thing. Look for “weighted keys”, that’s the key feature. You miss some of the richness of the sound and some of the feel of the vibrations but that’s about it.
Having said all that, if I could afford and justify a good-quality real piano, I’d get a real one. But only good quality.
If you or your children want to start learning how to play the piano, I would suggest starting with a decent electronic piano. As others have noted here, while they still don’t have all the nuance, warmth, or personality of great acoustic pianos, they have improved a lot in recent years. They also have some advantages: volume control, playability with headphones, staying in tune, etc.
While you or your kids are getting better at playing your electronic piano, you should also take whatever opportunities you can to try acoustic pianos. That will give you an idea of the range of tones, touch, and quality of acoustics, and you will find out what it’s like to play on a piano that is not perfectly in tune. You will then be in a position to start deciding whether you want to invest in an acoustic piano or not.
I myself learned how to play as a child on several mediocre acoustic pianos, maintained my skills for a couple of decades on so-so electronic pianos, and for the last twenty years have been playing an acoustic grand piano (Boston, designed by Steinway and made by Kawai) that I bought new. It cost about as much as a new car and I spend more than five hundred dollars a year to keep it tuned and in good shape, but it’s worth it to me.
This is the way. If your kids take to piano, by all means roll up your sleeves and get an acoustic instrument (that will more than likely become a piece of furniture in 10-20 years). But a good DP will be better than the equivalent acoustic all the way up to $20K, which is way over my budget for “things my kids may or may not stick with.”
I had the chance to learn the piano on a grand piano (K. Kawai KG-3C from early 1980's which is a great baby grand).
As I was the only pianist in the family, it followed me everywhere I moved, from France to now south east Asia. After 40 years, it is still working perfectly, even if it had endured a lot.
I also have digital keyboards, make music with great VSTs, etc...
But nothing compares to a real piano in terms of inspiration and emotion. Each piano you play with will have a soul and character that will resonate with you (or not).
I love digital things, but nothing replaces the poetry of a piano. And damn, these instruments are marvels of craftmanship.
And people saying having to bring a technician to tune your piano twice a year is a chore, for me it's the opposite. I love seeing my technician optimizing the sound and the action to my playing style, discussing with him about his experience in Hamburg at Steinway, etc...
Seeing something fundamentally beautiful (other than a Harp I think it’s the most rich instrument) being brought back to its harmonic greatness is a wonderful thing.
Just made this decision (as an experienced player).
The other comments are pretty solid, ultimately a DP is great for dipping your toes in and a 1k digital is probably better than a 1k acoustic.
That said as I heard someone say there is something magical about the physical and sonic experience of playing an acoustic and feeling the sound reverberate through you and hear all that resonance.
Until you get to the top end of digital pianos (like your Kawai CA99 / Novus 5S) which have a soundboard or you're a very clued up audiophile, you'll never get close to replicating that physical experience and for some people it's that magic that makes them fall in love with the instrument.
I ended up going digital as I like playing at all hours of the day and can practise in ways that will drive people crazy (I recently spent ~100 minutes working on a single bar of Chopin nonstop without break after having too much guarana in an acai paired with a coffee). My other half also pointed out that given how much I love playing, will practising/playing with a mute pedal on be enjoyable enough if I'm always holding back.
If you have the budget you can also look at silent pianos, I considered one but the one in my local Yamaha showroom was poorly regulated which gave me cold feet but a decent silent should carry you pretty far.
The sound is really good on digital pianos these days (and I mean digital pianos as opposed to keyboards).
The main playing difference between a digital piano and a real piano is the key action. Depending on how much you want to spend you can get realistic key feel and action on a digital piano.
Merriam Music (a Canadian music shop) recently made a couple of interesting videos talking about Kawai's different key actions on their various models of digital piano:
The Kawai ES110 (soon to be replaced by the ES120), for example, is a solid entry level digital piano at a good price. As you progress with playing you might find you want more out of the key action than the Responsive Hammer Compact action on the ES110 offers, in which case getting a model with the Responsive Hammer III action is a good upgrade.
I like digital pianos because they can be cheaper than the real thing, they don't require tuning, they are smaller, lighter, more portable with audio out, MIDI, and bluetooth connections for integration with software. I like that I can play it silently (or at least quietly) with headphones whenever I want.
Experience: A piano doesn't have an on/off switch. It can't be anything but a piano. Electronic pianos can be guitars, drum-kits, or entire orchestras! It can feel more like a toy than an instrument, especially for younger children. So right off the bat, a piano will give you or your children focus when they sit on the piano stool.
Sound: a hammer hitting real strings vs a speaker replicating the sound. If a speaker gets dust in it or becomes damaged in some way, the sound is greatly diminished. Also, pianos are made of wood which vibrates. The strings at the higher end which aren't dampened vibrate. If I sneeze loud enough, the piano in my room sometimes hums with vibration. It's a living thing.
Yes, pianos need to be tuned and electronic pianos don't... but if you or your child is actually taking lessons and practising, you want a piano. Your technique, I think, will be much better if you learn on a piano with real hammer action vs an electronic piano.
I think the trick to buying a piano is taking your time and only buying the one that sounds right to you. Some people like a more warm, mellow tone. Other people like more brightness and brilliance. The "family" piano we have was purchased 20 years ago and it's a standard upright piano. It's absolutely rock solid, still sounds beautiful.
I disagree. This is like saying that a electric guitar that makes piano sounds can be a piano and more of a toy than an instrument.
Digital does not make something worse.
Think about your average person, they won't be able to fork out much more than $800 in some instrument be it acoustic or not. That money won't get them anything remotely playable (acoustically) but it will get them a digital device that will inspire their practice.
I never understand why so many pianists seem to forget that acoustic pianos are not cheap, especially compared to other instruments like the guitar or for people that are just starting and might quit in a couple of years because their practice in an acoustic piano has made the neighbors complain to the police 8 times for noise related matters
It can feel more like a toy than an instrument, especially for younger children. So right off the bat, a piano will give you or your children focus when they sit on the piano stool.
When we bought a piano for my daughter 15 years ago, the ability to make funny sounds was a key factor in picking up a digital piano rather than an acoustic. It made practice more fun which meant longer practice sessions. Plus, I think noodling and pure play is important. It should be a toy.
I think it was the right call for my kid. She became an amazing player and still loves playing today.
You can spend about as much on a decent upright on a good digital piano that feels good enough to perform with, and a good sound. The difference is you'll be able to resell the latter and move it easily, whereas you'll usually need to pay someone to haul away the former.
I also think that there's a noticeable difference in feel and timbre in the real thing, even a bad piano. I think it affects the way you play. Given the choice almost everyone uses a real piano to record. But gigging musicians will usually prefer a digital piano, because they can move it and trust it sounds and feels the same in different venues. Most acoustic pianos supplied by venues are poorly maintained and can have other issues like amplification (you have to mic a piano, which means you need a sound engineer at the gig, which may or may not be possible).
I bought my Weinbach (a full sized upright made by Petrof) for $6,000 in about 1993. I finally sold it for $1,200 in 2020 or so. It took a long time to sell.
A lot of houses, especially outside the US, don't have room for a grand piano, but they still want a good instrument. So you don't necessarily have to give it away.
I can't really comment on the nuances of the sound, but a digital piano will allow you to plug in headphones which is - in my opinion - invaluable in a home environment.
I find playing an acoustic piano more fun and satisfying in various hard-to-define ways, but digital pianos are fine too. It's a matter of preference and convenience more than anything else.
My digital piano actually gets played more these days, but that's just because I like to play in just intonation or non-equal temperaments, and the digital piano is easier to change. My regular piano is currently tuned to just intonation relative to the key of D, which doesn't work for a lot of songs.
It is very similar to a computer keyboard. Would you prefer to learn to type on a freebie kb included in a Walmart bundle, or <insert what you enjoy typing on>? They both get the job done, but one likely 'feels' better, which in turns makes the entire experience more pleasing.
