"Corporations don't kill people because they are not legally allowed to"
That's one of the most provocative things I have heard in a while. I have to make a comment here. Please forgive the intrusion. (I haven't read the entire thread)
Corporations are businesses. They provide the best service or product to people at the lowest price.
How could you keep a market interested in your product if you were killing people making it? Do you think some kind of secret trade-off where corporations got to kill vast numbers of people secretly in the middle of the night to keep prices low would actually work for _any_ corporation? If you were a CEO, would you gamble the entire corporate stock on it?
It's the stuff of Hollywood fantasy, not reality. Business is based on good faith, trustworthy contracts, and the moral and physical support of all concerned. You can't just start whacking people and expect any of that to stay around. That's not reality. Yes -- you could sell a dangerous product. But that's not killing people. It's a different thing entirely.
As for "engineering government" to work for you, I assume that's the main part of your thread. I'd simply ask that you do a LOT of reading on engineering government to work for people. There have been a lot of people doing a lot of engineering, so we have a lot of history to read and learn about.
How could you keep a market interested in your product if you were killing people making it? Do you think some kind of secret trade-off where corporations got to kill vast numbers of people secretly in the middle of the night to keep prices low would actually work for _any_ corporation?
How could you keep a people supporting your government if you were killing people running it? Do you think some kind of secret trade-off where the government got to kill vast numbers of people secretly in the middle of the night to keep your standard of living high would actually work for _any_ government?
I don't make the same nebulous distinction between governments and other entities. A government is just type of corporation that is allowed to kill/incarcerate people.
I hope you don't think I am anti-corporate. Quite the opposite, I think that the shared stock company is responsible in large part for the civilization we see today. Feudalism would have continued indefinitely until the markets were allowed to take over. And I think that government should be run like corporation: the interests of the shareholders is made explicit and shares can be bought and sold on the open market. The job of the CEO is to maximize revenue and only shareholders have a say in whether the CEO is doing a good job or not. This is in essence what we have now with congress playing the role of CEO and special interest groups playing the role of shareholders. The only difference is that everything would be formalized and transparent.
And yes, I do a LOT of reading on the history of government, specifically between the renaissance and the 18th century. Read enough and you'll start to see that democracy is a type of fascism. It is a fascism of public opinion but fascism none the less. Our capitalist republic government is not quite as bad as a democracy but it is also not a stable entity, it is a delicate balance between the powers of mob rule and that of individual liberties.
"How could you keep a people supporting your government if you were killing people running it?" - er, because government is the monopoly on the use of force as stated in the social contract? And no, there is no trade-off involved. What, switching words around amuses you?
"A government is just type of corporation that is allowed to kill/incarcerate people." -- what, are you from the school for slow Marxists? I don't even know where begin with you. Do some reading on the rise of the merchant classes during the crusades. Perhaps learn a bit from John Locke about Natural Law. Check out some Hobbes and learn some about the social contract. Government is a completely different entity than a corporation. It's like you're comparing earthworms and 747s. Here's a hint for you: can't have a corporation without a government. But you can have a government without a corporation. That's just for starters.
If you'd like to make an extended metaphor, you're going to have to do much better than just saying "X is the same as Y. Now I want to draw some conclusions." You have to be able to differentiate the history, structure, purpose, evolution, issues, risks, and possible future states of each item. then you show how they are the same. Or conversely, you could go to theoretical underpinnings and come up with a list of common attributes that you could claim are all that matter in regards to your statements. The best I could do offhand is note that both governments and corporations consists of "shareholders" and have an executive section. But even then, "shareholder" is not anywhere near how a person relates to their government.
I'm not your teacher. Go find one. Or find the one you used before and ask for your money back. This is dreck.
you presume I haven't read Locke, Rousseau, and Hobbes because I've drawn different conclusions than you? How about Burke and Goethe? Spinoza, Hume and Kant? I can fallaciously appeal to authority too, just because I've read all of these writers doesn't mean I can pass off the onus of thinking on them. I see many of the problems in today's society as going directly back to flaws in enlightenment era ideas about government. And why would you call me a slow Marxist? I hate collectivism, are my posts coming off as anti-corporate just because I called the government one? Assuredly the government is a poorly run corporation but that doesn't mean I'm inditing corporations in general.
And it's not a metaphor, I'm saying that government is literally the same as a corporation. The American government is a corporation whose assets are the land between the atlantic and pacific and bordered by canada and mexico. In payment for the use of this land, every person tithes a percentage of any value they earn/create. People also agree to abide by certain rules of conduct. seems all very straightforward to me. No need to invent some special privileges that government is magically imbued with that a corporation wouldn't have.
Think of it this way, if a corporation decided that it would be in its best interests to start operating off of an island in international waters wouldn't the corporation need to defend its holdings with military force and do its own policing?
The idea that government has some sort of mystical, moral, or intrinsic "right" to run things is nonsense. It's just a group of people who by various means, legal, military, or otherwise have gained the ability to determine what happens on a specific tract of land. That they then set up a school system by which people are taught that they do have a moral, mystical, or intrinsic right to run the place should not be surprising.
The fact that corporations have a clear motive and government does not is part of my problem with government. What the hell is purpose of government? If the purpose of government is just to provide security, enforce contracts, keep foreigners at bay, and otherwise provide a stable environment in which people can conduct private business then the U.S. government is doing a piss poor job and ought to be fired.
Do you know what the U.S. is trying to do? because the system by which it arrives at decisions about what to do seems pretty damn opaque to me. It's certainly not public opinion, but nor is it dictatorship since as far as I can see the man supposedly in charge can't hire or fire people, can't affect major policies, can't decide the budget or any other useful thing.
That's one of the most provocative things I have heard in a while. I have to make a comment here. Please forgive the intrusion. (I haven't read the entire thread)
Corporations are businesses. They provide the best service or product to people at the lowest price.
How could you keep a market interested in your product if you were killing people making it? Do you think some kind of secret trade-off where corporations got to kill vast numbers of people secretly in the middle of the night to keep prices low would actually work for _any_ corporation? If you were a CEO, would you gamble the entire corporate stock on it?
It's the stuff of Hollywood fantasy, not reality. Business is based on good faith, trustworthy contracts, and the moral and physical support of all concerned. You can't just start whacking people and expect any of that to stay around. That's not reality. Yes -- you could sell a dangerous product. But that's not killing people. It's a different thing entirely.
As for "engineering government" to work for you, I assume that's the main part of your thread. I'd simply ask that you do a LOT of reading on engineering government to work for people. There have been a lot of people doing a lot of engineering, so we have a lot of history to read and learn about.