I don't see it that way - all I see is a predictable corporate reaction to pointing out micromanager tendencies.
Also putting down non "first world" coders before they have even been given a chance. I can see that "flagging" is obviously easier than comprehending and rectifying the unfair situation that OP is putting these people in. It is clear that he views such candidates as below him or at least that is how it comes across.
Not really if a manager is going to list demands they expect from their subordinates the least they can do is ensure they understand the difference between similar sounding words.
"It always comes down to trust - how can I make sure that if I work with you, you're going to commit code that I won't have to do a ton of cleanup on?" - This is what I have the issue with - it's generally the difficult clients who won't trust you and have a general arrogance where they believe they are generally entitled to judge before you have written a single line of code. If you are going to have this attitude, try not to get hurt feelings when someone points out your shortcomings.
I'll gladly tell them how the modular arithmetic works, I just want them to fill out the rest. Many are unable to, which tells me that they don't know even the simplest constructs in programming.
The problem, from my perspective, is you think this is something that needs to be 'known', rather than a basic skill. I think it is basic.
I don't want somebody who 'knows' how to invert a tree, any more than I want someone who's learned the answer to Fizzbuzz.
The point is not that you know how to do it, but that you can naturally perform basic manipulation of very simple data structures. If you can't swap two values, or you can't write recursive code, you may think you're a competent programmer, but I don't agree. What is basic, if that kind of thing is advanced?
If you think an employer expecting that level of competence has 'a sort of attitude', then I don't know what to say. How would you react to someone who felt that way when asked if they could code a loop over a pair of lists, or return a function from a function, or any thing else you consider routine (do you consider anything routine)?
It worries me that programming has become 'copying and pasting from Google' and that people would find it offensive that anyone could possibly have a higher standard than that. If that's a horribly elitist, unacceptably arrogant attitude to you, then again, I don't know what to say.
ah did you edit this? I noticed you wrote "you may think you're God's gift to programming, but you're wrong." before removing it (it was gone once I had refreshed). Did you realise you know nothing about me so saying something like that is ridiculous?
I just think people starting out should be supported and being arrogant about it doesn't really help anyone.
I did edit, sorry for the original wording. I also get myself into trouble using 'you', which I mostly meant 'one' rather than you specifically. You're right to call me out on it. Sorry again.
So, do you feel like answering the questions in my edited and toned down version?
I confess I am really struggling with this at the moment, because this kind of thing seems to keep coming up. And I honestly cannot figure out where I'm going wrong to expect programmers to be able to do this kind of thing.
Nah. Programmers who write everything by googling+copy-pasting will eventually be replaced by robots. Which will be created by programmers who can come up with an algorithm on their own.
So what Modulo is there to catch people out. If you were a front end developer do you really need this?
The fact employers will reject based on a test that is fashionable just because a few coding blogs said so doesn't mean they can't provide value. What about their past work or qualifications?
Cocky. Sounds like a clique i'd want to avoid at all costs.
I can't tell if you're being serious or trolling but using modulus in front-end is not all that uncommon. Especially when doing reporting or animation.
For years the only way to do zebra striped tables was that way.
Also, I never said...
1. We were taking about front-end.
2. We reject solely based on it. I just used it as an example of a type of question.
In fact we've hired candidates who didn't know what modulo was because when they encountered it they were able to reason through it.
Furthermore... this candidate failed far easier questions that that. I used FizzBuzz as the "hardest" question.
Does not knowing Fizz Buzz mean you won't be productive? No. But it is probably a good indicator you aren't commanding of $150k a year this guy got hired for.
I said Front end as an example could apply to most developer jobs really.
Anyway, this guy you placed as a "lower mid", this is your judgement, how do you know it's correct? Did other people say the same? Perhaps he didn't have the skills you were looking for but was good at other things. Saying the other company didn't do their diligence is easy but is that really what happened?
If you are hiring developers and placing them as lower, mid, lead etc. you are going to get flak anyway as you're just jailing them and hiring a load of people who only agree with what you think.
You're going to get people who are good at developing software who don't care about math(s) or machine learning, give them 2 seconds and Google and they can answer your Modulo question.
Is it not about the willingness and enthusiasm to learn? Or do they have to go through "hard" tests to prove they can work out some academic nonsense they are never going to need to use. To prove themselves to the frat. I'd argue a lot of really clever people good at the hardcore Computer science and data analysis type subjects aren't always as good at writing decent code.
First I didn't say "lower mid" ... I said "middle"... you are miss-categorizing what I said. It's a minor difference but the fact you changed the facts of the discussion in a direction that makes me look more extreme is very telling. Not only did you twist what I said but you even quoted it as if it is a citation.
Second one of my other posts talk about how we've had great luck bringing on and mentoring juniors and they have been successful. I have hired people who literally dropped out of school freshman year. Again, you're either not reading or not listening.
I think you may be projecting your pre-conceived image of who I am and I don't think I can convince you otherwise.
I also think the fact I have almost 1700 on my throw away account and you have -1 on your year old account is very telling. I shouldn't have even engaged. I'm done now.
You said mid generously so I think it was fair to say lower middle.
No need to get competitive about who has the highest score - sounds like this guy dodged a bullet from having to work with you anyway. You seem like you would be a nightmare to work for.
I was 255 in Jan now at 235lb by not eating cereal, bread, sweets, drinking sugary drinks etc.
Seem to have stayed at 235 for a few weeks now so i'm guessing it's easier to lose the first lot of fat.
Been going to a gym most days but then i'm a student so have the time in the middle of the day. It would have been difficult to go that much with a FT job. Went a bit far with the cardio and now have hurt knees so watch out for that. Good luck.
Question what do you have for breakfast now you quit cereal and bread? I mostly have cereal for breakfast mostly organic and less processed /sugary brands but I still feel I could do better.
Conceited. There is never an excuse for workplace bullying. You don't know how to manage if all you can do is criticise in your 'TODOs'. You are not as advanced a developer as you would like to think if your best solution is to rewrite.
